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Lay, Freeman Not Guilty In School Prayer Case
September 17, 2009
Frank Lay and Robert Freeman have both been found not guilty on criminal charges that they prayed in violation of a federal court order.
The order was issued this evening from U.S. Judge Casey Rogers. The judge did make it clear that her order stands — no prayer or pushing religion in school.
“I want to thank my (Pace High School) Patriot family, but above all, I want to thank the chief counsel, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit,” Lay said after exiting the federal courthouse Thursday evening.
Both men could have faced up to six months in jail and fines of $5,000 each if they had been found in contempt of court.
Lay told the judge that the
Pace High School Principal Frank Lay asked the school’s athletic director, Robert Freeman, to bless a meal where sports boosters had gathered to celebrate the completion of a new field house.
The American Civil Liberties Union filed the lawsuit in federal court almost a year ago against the Santa Rosa School District, Pace High School Principal Frank Lay and then-Santa Rosa Superintendent John Rogers. The suit alleged that Santa Rosa County Schools “persistently and persuasively promote their personal religious beliefs in the public schools and at school events”.
The federal court order issued earlier this year by Rogers prohibited, among other things, any prayer in schools, “reading from a sacred text”, “calling upon a deity to offer guidance, assistance or a blessing” and religious services such as baccalaureate services. There are circumstances were student-led prayers are permissible, but school employees are prohibited to participate in the prayer, even prohibited from “a posture or manner that is likely to be perceived as an endorsement of prayer, e.g. bowing their heads, kneeling or folding their hands”.
Comments
95 Responses to “Lay, Freeman Not Guilty In School Prayer Case”
AA
Keep up the good fight but don’t tar all xians with the tar brush that a few have earned by their public preaching. One thing I have learned over the years – don’t hate or dislike an individual solely because of their membership in a group, whether that group is a religion or a race or a political party. Most people are good. Make your judgments about a person based on their actions, not by their external appearance. Give everyone a chance to make a fool of themselves (or not) before dropping the hammer on them.
Make your own decisions, don’t let others’ words affect you in those choices.
I have probably led most to believe that I despise the Christian god more than I am convinced that he does not exist; but you couldn’t be further from the truth. I was raised in a very Christian family, and my entire life I was very devout in my faith. Then one day, the concept of a creator seemed very improbable. I filled my explanations with scientific ones, spiritual and moral beliefs that I personally believed in, and left it at that.
I hate (or strongly dislike) most Christians because of people like RWC, Jeannie Sheffield, Erik, etc. They persecute others who don’t believe like they do(ESPECIALLY RWC…) and use god as a tool in order to justify their intolerance. Mr. Lay and Coach Freeman, whether they admit it or not, behaved in a similar manner when they requested a word of prayer instead of a moment of silence. When do the other religious groups get to bow their heads? Before, or after the Christian prayer is being led? That’s my problem with Christians these days. Most tend to walk over other nationalities and belief systems because they presume THEY are still the majority. Acknowledge all faiths, or acknowledge no faith.
Articulate Athiest,
You may be in a better position than many luke warm Christians. Jesus said He’d rather we be hot or cold than lukewarm. Most Christians I’ve known in my life have seemed lukewarm, and didn’t even want to discuss The Word outside of a church setting. You have some legitmate questions…..questions that only God should answer. It is too bad you do not believe in Him, for He is very real. I had to find that out for myself from Him. I did not want to hear from anyone but Him. And, I was angry, and poured out my heart to Him. He answered, not in an audible voice. It was much deeper than that. It was a still small voice deep within, and it was very clear, and Peaceful. It is written that the fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” I do not think you are a fool, and I do not think you are convinced there is no God. You are angry about what you perceive to be God. Ask Him. He said we’d find Him when we search for Him with our whole heart. The fault in not in His Word. It is in our hearing. He has said that His Word is Spirit. Most miss that, or skip over it. It was important, or He would not have said it, and have it recorded. Luke 11 helped me. So did Romans 12:1.
I don’t believe most Christians are evil or wrong for their worship. However, the scripture itself is flawed, contradicts itself, and condones countless high crimes against humanity (regardless of being a god or not, that IS wrong). A god who thrives on the smell of burning flesh (Genesis 8: 20-22, Exodus 29: 17-19, etc.), condones rape (Numbers 31: 7-8, Deuteronomy 20: 10-14), and the murder of innocents (throughout the entire biblical text) is not whose word I want to hear when I’m attending a football game or paying attention in math class! Certainly not by my educators, whom all support violators of my First Amendment rights as a US citizen.
I would list off scripture until the day ends; but sadly, I don’t have the time (or the patience). I don’t want to come back and see a bunch of dribble about how “He works in mysterious ways,” or that “God is perfect,” either. Science is the only absolute in the universe, even if sometimes there are too many variables for human comprehension or understanding… and I’d rather have my fate in the hands of those variables than the Christian god.
Frank Lay’s case was not determined by your god. You should all be quite angry if that were true; after all, isn’t there plenty of true suffering in the world more deserving of His attentions (and I capitalize only for reference, not out of submission) than a man charged with criminal contempt of court, a crime he actually did commit? Why doesn’t your god alleviate the suffering or cure the sick, instead of giving a man lee-way and you all an issue into which you can spill your copious amounts of nostalgia? That’s a question that should be answered, instead of ignored so that you can justify your zeal with nonsense.
As my final post on this subject (and many may be glad to hear it), all I can say is that this argument has been going on since the courts ruled; I believe the bigger argument as been going on throughout time.
People are seldom changed by debate or argument; we all hold things close that we value.
I have enjoyed the exchanges. Thanks.
Mr. Somerville, I did address your comments, however maybe they got hung up in cyberspace as the label on the post was: Scobie Wilcoxon on Your comment is awaiting moderation. September 19th, 2009 11:45 pm
It said:
Mr. Somerville, you are, indeed, the worthy opponent; I say that in the most positive and sincere way. Thank you. I am enjoying this debate and will so long as the website will allow or until we decide to close it. I will add that while we debate I am sure that I will not change your view, nor will you mine. I feel that at some point, as I play on your more secular field, I will lose the debate since I will be tempted to revert to the scriptures, which we are ultimately debating (to some degree) as much as we are arguing the Constitution. For example, one cannot use the word being defined as its own definition. Furthermore, I am not well trained in Christian Apologetics; my views come as much from my personal belief system.
That being said here are my refutes to your latest post.
My referral to the Declaration was only to refute another’s post about the founders being athiest. You are correct and I agree with your statement as such.
You are also correct when you imply that Mr. Jefferson’s views might not be well received in a Southern Baptist church; I would add that his view might not be well received in any Christian church.
You are again correct when you make the reference to words being used in one time period versus another. Actually, Mr. Jefferson used the word Christian almost exactly as the Webster dictionary defines it today. I say almost because the definition leaves some room for interpretation (not unlike many of our laws and Constitutional interpretations).
I also agree with you that if I stood up in my church and expressed Mr. Jefferson’s views as my own, I would most certainly be admonished (again, I think that would apply to any Christian church, not just a Southern Baptists church); I doubt, however, that I would suffer bodily harm-I can’t really believe you think I would.
As for considering Mr. Jefferson a Christian. I cannot read his heart, only his writings (or lack thereof) as you decribed. With that in mind, you are again correct that I would not consider his views as Christian inasmuch as I do believe in the Trinity of God and the resurrection of the Messiah, Jesus Christ. I utilize the part of the Webster definition where it mentions the ‘truth as taught by Him.’ Jesus did teach that he was the Son of God and that he would be resurrected and that he was the Messiah. If this definition was the same in Jefferson’s time, then, by definition, Jefferson would not have been a Christian if he indeed believed (or more accurately didn’t believe) those things, as you stated, to be true and was not merely presenting them as a matter of argument in some philosophical discussion.
[Again, I remind you that I referred to the earlier posted statement about the founders being athiests; I didn’t necessarily say I thought they were all Christian, just not athiest.]
You are correct, I meant to write ‘another’ instead of ‘the’ in my post when I referred to Mr. Adams quote.
Regarding the Treaty, I believe I mentioned the treaty as ratified 8 years after the original. If the treaty was written, broken, then re-written would you not agree that the later one supercedes the earlier version (especially if it carried the same name)? I also believe that 1797 + 8 is 1805. I don’t mind arguing symantecs as long as we stay on point, professor.
I still think your ‘Freedom’ quote makes my case. If you present your whole quote, it makes a circle. Your last sentence reinforces my point, in my opinion. Don’t you just hate it when that happens? Many of our laws evolve from the (I know you’re going to chide me for this) but the Ten Commandments of the Old Testament, which were written before the birth of Jesus Christ, therefore not Christian, by Webster’s definition, right?
You once again tried to misquote me regarding the Holy Trinity case. I used an exerpt from that case that said the United States was a religious (not Christian) nation. Please, Mr. Somerville, don’t keep trying that tactic.
I guess I missed your point regarding the New Orleans case, sorry.
I deal with government regulators on a regular basis. They seem caught up in the ‘the law means this’ or ‘I believe it means that’. I believe that what is writtten is writtten. The philosophy of judicial activism has been practiced by both sides of the political aisle to no good end. However, since we give the Supreme Court the last word, the writing of the majority opinion as rendered is the law; the dissenting opinion is worthless except to express how the other side felt about the majority opinion. This activism, as matter of fact, is just exactly how the ’separation of church and state’ philosophy entered into our legal system from Mr. Jefferson’s writing.
I am not sure, sir, are you calling me or ‘Lee’ a liar? I understand, very well, the definition of ‘to plagiarize’. I referred to his posts only as points I would have presented. His first post gave credit to the writer/speaker; his second post may have come from another source and probably should have been properly cited.
All that being said, my original point (and I feel we have drifted somewhat) was that Christians seem to be the target of very liberal attacks. It almost seems personal in nature at times. In your first reply this morning, you accurately stated that the reason the court exonerated the defendants was because the event was not a school function. The beloved ACLU sure jumped quickly to create this frivolous lawsuit; do you think their attorneys were trying to sincerely be the self appointed religious watchdog in this situation or do you think they were just simply using the court as a tool for harrassment? Do you find it ironic that the judge who issued the original order, then decided the defendants were not guilty of violating it? I honestly do not know, but would find it almost uncanny, if the Judge who issued the contempt citation was one in the same, too; if that were the case, one should raise an eyebrow to such questionable circumstances, don’t you think? (providing of course, she had all the information and the accusing attorneys didn’t file half-truths)
I look forward to your next post. By the way, I have been assuming that your name indicates you are a male; if I have been mistaken please accept my sincere apology, I meant no disrespect.
Comments of mine that have not been addressed
1) Would a man who stated today that he did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, did not believe in the virgin birth, did not believe in the Triune God, be called Christian in any Southern Baptist Church or in fact in any Christian church other than the Unitarian/Universalist Church?
2) You are wrong in your claim about the Treaty of Tripoli. There were two Treaties, the first ratified in 1797, the second in 1805.
3) My earlier quote from John Adams is not from the same document as the one you provided. You have failed to acknowledge this after originally stating:
“In your reference to Mr. Adams’ quote, here is the complete quote:
” Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, “This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion at all!!!” But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.”
as if the quote I posted September 18th, 2009 at 11:08 am were part of the one you provided.
4) You failed to comment on L’Hote and the Methodist Episcopal Church v. City of New Orleans and it s relationship to the earlier decision Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States
Mr Wilcoxon posted:
“You are mistaken about your graven images comment. The graven image was not supposed to be of anything on, in, or above the earth in order to be worshipped. The Ten Commandments were writtten in stone, after all; I don’t think anyone worships them, per se.”
In response I offer the following with my emphasis on the one word that shows Mr Wilcoxon’s error in describing the Commandment.
KJV – Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, OR any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Mr Wilcoxon also posted:
“Which ones of the Ten Commandments should not be used? Show me one, that, in principle, is not an accepted part of any religion. “
In reply, I offer the “graven images” commandment, as there are many religions that do call for the use of images, either of deitys or of holy persons and artifacts. There is the one about working six days and keeping the “sabbath”, that certainly is not one that all other religions would follow and we also have the “take the name of the LORD” in vain.
A statement was also made about the value of the Ten Commandments as “foundational fundamentals”. Thomas Jefferson and most of the Founders certainly didn’t believe they were such, rather it was English common law and the Enlightenment philosophies of Locke that were used in forming the Constitution.
I was pleased to see that Mr Wilcoxon does support historical studies of the world’s religions. Such studies could be valuable to America’s youth, the problem of course comes in maintaining neutrality within the classroom while looking at various beliefs.
With this reply, I will cease my efforts at showing the errors that all too many believe are true historical facts. Thank you Mr Wilcoxon, I don’t think I have offered disrespect toward you but if you feel that one who disagrees with your interpretations is disrespectful of you, I cannot change that.
“Which ones of the Ten Commandments should not be used? Show me one, that, in principle, is not an accepted part of any religion. ”
thou shalt have no other gods before me.
that is fine for a group of people agreeing on how they will conduct their own personal lives.
It is not fine for people who have not chosen to follow that God or any god.
Mr. Somerville,
I most certainly did address your comments. Maybe you just chose which parts of my post to read.
You are mistaken about your graven images comment. The graven image was not supposed to be of anything on, in, or above the earth in order to be worshipped. The Ten Commandments were writtten in stone, after all; I don’t think anyone worships them, per se.
Sir, I am not attempting to force anything on anyone, just desiring the freedom to practice or not to practice; just as other religions are allowed to do. I even support a historical study of all religions in schools as a matter of educational value.
If you insist on using the term religion and Christianity interchangeably, then you are, indeed, refusing to give other religious entities their rightful place by definition. The Buddhist religion follows the teachings of Buddha, Islam-Mohammed, etc. Are they not religions? How can you possibly validate your position? Furthermore, if you use them interchangeably, then the government is, indeed, discriminating against Christianity…by your own definition, would you agree?
Which ones of the Ten Commandments should not be used? Show me one, that, in principle, is not an accepted part of any religion.
By the way, I have attempted to have a gentleman’s debate and have extended every courtesy to you as a manner of respect. You have not afforded me the same courtesy. It seems obvious that you do not respect me; I dare say that you may be one who doesn’t respect anyone who doesn’t hold with your view. I am enjoying our debate, but will discontinue if that, indeed, is your attitude.
Enough, Wilcoxon and Somerville. Find a mutual venue and debate all you want. You two aren’t the first to view this differently, and you won’t be the last.
First, the two men were not in a public school when the prayer took place. Thus, the judge’s ruling.
Second, I don’t believe any teacher or administrator FORCES his/her religion and/or Christianity on any student—in a public school. Yes, that is against the law.
Third, most of you over fifty have heard prayer in school at some point. I don’t believe it traumatized any of you emotionally or physically. And I don’t believe it will leave any scars if heard or witnessed today.
Wilcoxon posted
“I will enjoy my Sunday as I prepare to go to the place of worship that I freely choose”
which perfectly exemplifies the struggle taking place in America today. For he, as many others who call themselves Christian, is perfectly happy to accept that he can go to the church of his choice to worship the deity of his choice BUT for some reason he doesn’t seem to be able to accept that forcing his particular deity on those who do not believe in the same manner is not part of HIS religious freedom. Public schools are government entities, public school teachers are government employees, therefore any participation by teachers or administrators is government participation in religion. And that ain’t legal.
Yes, I use “religion and Christianity interchangeably” for they are interchangeable to any rational person. To state otherwise is an attempt to place Christianity into a separate category under the laws of this nation – which unfortunately we see everyday.
The Ten Commandments – Which ones should be used? Also the silly Ten Commandment monuments that some are attempting to place in public parks and building – don’t the ones who are doing it understand the Commandment about “graven images”?
Wilcoxon, you seem to be ignoring many of the points I made in my previous post.
It was that Congress couldn’t establish any religion and force anyone to participate nor could that interfere in anyone’se right to practice their own religion.
So WHY are there so many attempts to stop Christians from practising THEIR religion?
I just don’t understand what is supposed to be so rational about thinking that it is ok to keep me from praying or bowing my head when someone else prays? The Constitution specifically gives me the right to do so. What makes the ACLU so privileged and special that they can take that right away?
I have nothing against any other religion. I don’t care if Muslims or Buddhists or Maoists or Hindus or whatever pray in school or anywhere else. That is their religion and religion is sacred. You simply do NOT interfere with anyone’s practice of their beliefs. It is their right, just as it is mine to pray if I so desire.
If my child can be suspended for bringing her Bible to school because that is considered “disruptive”, what about a Muslim with their headgear? See what I mean? There IS no difference.
Leave us all alone to worship when and how we please and we will do the same.
Coincidentally, I saw a bumper sticker recently which stated: “ACLU…we don’t hate ALL religion, we just hate CHRISTIANITY!” What kind of message is that? I teach my kids not to hate and then the group that is supposed to make sure that they are not discriminated against or deprived of any of their rights tells them that they HATE them? How can they say they stand up for anyone’s civil rights when they do this? It’s utterly and completely ridiculous.
Mr. Somerville, let me begin this post with the hope that you are doing what any good teacher would do in a classroom discussion: presenting the counter argument to the class to bolster discussion and not as a result of your actual beliefs. You are an excellent debater and I wonder if you could present the argument as well for the other side?
I want to address something that you continually do in your posts and that is to use the term religion and Christianity interchangeably. That is not correct. Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism are certainly religions, for example, but they certainly are not Christian. So to use your example of the Marx quote, I might agree, in principle, that religion is the opiate of the masses. Often when men are disillusioned with the things of the world, they turn to their foundational religious (not necessarily Christian) beliefs for peace and comfort.
That being said, I looked at your poll. It does appear that there is a falling away from religion. However, your poll also states that 69% of Americans believe there is a God. That, I believe, is still a majority. Many liberals like to rant about majority rule; apparently only when they think they are the majority. Our society seems to favor the minority so as not to offend; all the while offending the majority. Interesting concept, don’t you think?
Apparently, you revert to the tactic of diversion in our discussion. But your question did bear some thought: “I wonder if the rising insistence on public (Christian) prayer, public Ten Commandment displays and other public actions that impose Christian beliefs on the dis-interested, is caused by the fact that religious belief is losing ground in the population”. I’m not sure I agree that there is a ‘rising insistence’ regarding prayer in schools; I think the argument began the moment that prayer was removed from the schools. Furthermore, if there was dis-interest, there would be no debate on the subject, would you agree?
I think this poll simply reflects a falling away from religious beliefs and nothing more. I would pose the counter question to your inference this way: If, as the poll seems to indicate, religious belief is losing ground, would not those who desire to have prayer and display the Ten Commandments (not a Christian item by the way, they came from the Old Testament before the birth of Jesus Christ-many Jewish believers ascribe to them as well) be justified in trying to create an awareness or to maintain the foundational fundamentals? After all, many religions require prayer. Does a society suffer by trying to use the Ten Commandments as a civil guideline? Not to steal, kill, lie, or commit adultery surely doesn’t create a bad society, does it?
I would remind you that, as most people know, polls can be skewed and numbers can be interpreted in many ways. USA Today is not necessarily known to be a politically centrist paper.
My Christian belief would tend to make me surmise that the falling away from religious beliefs might be an underlying cause to many of the strifes, problems, and issues that our nation suffers today. My King James Bible tells me that there will be a falling away and also teaches spiritual warfare. Of course, you knew that at some point I would revert to the Scriptures for my guidance so I fully expect your wrath when you next post.
I will enjoy my Sunday as I prepare to go to the place of worship that I freely choose, to worship the God of my Bible and build on my Christian faith as much as I humanly can. I am but a man and am less than perfect so I rely on my faith in Jesus Christ to be my Salvation. I am not an uneducated person so I cannot be described an someone who blindly and without thought ascribe to these beliefs.
My prayers go out to you and to others in hope that you might somehow be led to the God of the Bible and know his Son, Jesus Christ, as your personal Lord and Savior. Many, through their endeavors to disprove the Bible, have come to believe in it and become great Christian leaders.
I wonder if the rising insistence on public (Christian) prayer, public Ten Commandment displays and other public actions that impose Christian beliefs on the dis-interested, is caused by the fact that religious belief is losing ground in the population.
From USAToday, reporting on a national survey of religious beliefs
“Most religious groups in USA have lost ground, survey finds”
URL – http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-03-09-american-religion-ARIS_N.htm
“Baptists, 15.8% of those surveyed, are down from 19.3% in 1990. Mainline Protestant denominations, once socially dominant, have seen sharp declines: The percentage of Methodists, for example, dropped from 8% to 5%.”
“• So many Americans claim no religion at all (34.2 million, 15%, up from 8% in 1990), that this category now outranks every other major U.S. religious group except Catholics and Baptists.”
“Meanwhile, nearly 2.8 (1.2%) million people now identify with dozens of new religious movements, calling themselves Wiccan, pagan or “Spiritualist,” which the survey does not define. Wicca, a contemporary form of paganism that includes goddess worship and reverence for nature, has even made its way to Arlington National Cemetery, where the Pentagon now allows Wiccans’ five-pointed-star symbol to be used on veterans’ gravestones. ”
Have a nice Sunday, thinking about the reasons so many are leaving religion behind.
Thinker,
Think about this:
It is written that God is not mocked. We reap what we sow. God is not the problem here. Fallen mankind is the problem. You must not have read the first chapter of the book of Romans. Or, you do not yet have faith and The Holy Spirit in your life, for He is the teacher. He is The One who makes known the understanding of the Truth of The Scriptures. One must believe to “see.” Not, the other way around. Faith comes from within. The souls that want to know their Creator knows instinctively when they hear the Truth. The problem comes when what that soul wants most is their own way. Thus, they rebel against The Truth, when they “hear” Him. Those souls love the “darkness” and will not come unto The Light, because they do not want their evil nature made known in The Light of The Word of God. Rest assured that God Almighty, through sinful man, was quite able to bring us The Word He wanted us to know. “America is in serious trouble” because America has turned her back on God, The One True God revealed only by His Son Jesus Christ. Once God even spoke through a jackass, because a man would not heed His Voice. You will one day soon, meet this God you do not believe exists. This will happen whether you believe in Him or not. It may happen much sooner than you think. Those who love you will tell you the truth. There are also those who will tell you the truth and not live it themselves. That does not excuse your resposibilty in the matter. No one will answer for you, but you. That is, unless Jesus is your Lord, in which case He will answer for you. He wants to be your advocate who says that He has already paid the price for your redemption. His Righteousness, imputed to those who truly believe is the only way one can enter into His rest. People that believe they can enter because of their own righteousness are in deep trouble. Without Faith, it is impossible to please God. You may ask, “but how can I HAVE Faith?” “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by The Word of God.
You are correct sir, when you reply
“I never said the Constitution mentioned anything about God or Jesus; I simply said the Declaration of Independence mentioned a ‘Creator.’” However, the Declaration of Independence though a great statement regarding the desires of the American colonists to release themselves from the ‘tyranny’ of the British monarch, has no legal standing in the United States. It establishes no laws nor proscriptions that must be obeyed – unlike the Constitution, it is a mere statement of priniciples.
Yes, on more than one occasion and in more than one missive, Mr Jefferson called himself Christian, although I do not think many Southern Baptists today would call a person ‘Christian’ who advocated the same views held by Jefferson.
The full quote from the letter to Benjamin Rush:
“I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other.” If you, Wilcoxon, were to stand up in any ‘Christian’ church today and say the following, I do believe that in some cases you might suffer bodily harm.
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” (Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, April 11, 1823).
For all of his words commending the basic philosophies taught by Jesus, Jefferson never publicly stated that he believed Jesus was the Son of God. So tell the reading audience, a man who categorically states that Jesus of Nazareth was not divine, performed no miracles, was crucified and never resurrected – is that man a Christian in the eyes of those who today name themselves Christian? Would a man who denied the concept of a Triune God be a Christian in your view? One problem we in this time have in understanding the writings of those who lived 200 years in the past are the often subtle but meaningful changes in the language plus the vast changes in society and culture from that time to ours.
You are wrong in your claim about the Treaty of Tripoli. In my original post, I included the date of the treaty and its ratification by unanimous vote -1797. In 1801, the treaty was broken and a brief war ensued – remember “from the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli” and a SECOND treaty was signed in 1805 which did not include the phrase, “The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian Religion.”
My earlier quote from John Adams is not from the same document as the one you provided. If you read further in Adams work, I think you would be surprised to find Mr Adams thought of religion as a good way to control the lower classes and not necessarily all that important for those he considered educated and from whom political leaders would be chosen. You know – sort of like Karl Marx writing about religion as being the “opiate of the masses”. Those ragged ignorant people should be religious as it provides a controlling force over their baser instincts, whereas educated persons only need to observe the public aspects of religion without the necessity of believing the myths.
I posted earlier
“One cannot have freedom from religion if one is forced to live under laws and codes created by reference to one particular set of religious beliefs.” Which for some reason you think supports your views about the dominance of Christianity within American society and laws.
Ah yes, the infamous Church of the Holy Trinity v US. A few words from one of those ‘libs’ on the Supreme Court of the United States
“…a thing may be within in the letter of the statute and yet not within the statute, because not within its spirit, nor within the intention of its makers – “arises, Phoenix-like, from the ashes. …[t]he only sure indication of what Congress intended is what Congress enacted; and even if there is a difference between the two, the rule of law demands that the latter prevail.
…Church of the Holy Trinity is an exemplar of judicial disregard of crystal-clear text. We must interpret the law as Congress has written it, not as we would wish it to be.” Justice Antonin Scalia writing about the case in A Matter of Interpretation: Federal Courts and the Law. The problem with the case as it was decided is exactly that which today the right accuses the leftist judges of doing – the decision was based NOT on the law as written but on the reports from the Senate committee that wrote the law which seemed to indicate the law was only supposed to apply to manual labourers and not those who used their education to find jobs in the US.
Five years after the decision in Church of the Holy Trinity, another case came before the SCOTUS,
L’Hote and the Methodist Episcopal Church v. City of New Orleans.
New Orleans had established by city ordinance, areas within the city where prostitution would be a legal business activity, what later came to be known as Storyville. George L’Hote was a property owner in one of the ‘red light’ areas, the church was also in one of the areas and as a consequence they were losing congregants. The church argued that prostitution should be illegal everywhere in New Orleans, and also argued that prostitution was inconsistent with Christianity which the Supreme Court of the United States had stated “is, and always has been, a part of the common law . . .”
In a unanimous decision, Justice Brewer ignored the church’s argument and verified the right of the city of New Orleans to create zones for prostitution. His decision in this case would seem to indicate that the earlier decision in Holy Trinity did not mean the United States should enforce the dictates of Christianity by governmental fiat. Had that been Brewer’s intention, he surely would have upheld the plaintiffs’ claim.
As to Lee, when one posts another’s words without indicating that they are another’s words, that is the same as lying. Every word he posted was copied from an evangelical website.
REGARDING:
Thinker on September 18th, 2009 10:16 am
“There was no explanation for the Judge’s ruling? Why? I hope the ACLU takes this to a higher court. Not having been at the “scene of the crime” myself, I sure would like to know why they are not guilty based on the information about their actions that was provided. ??? Can NorthEscambia.com fill us in?”
One of the interesting portions of the Constitution often forgotten is
Amendment V
….. nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb;…..
You can appeal a conviction many times but any acquittal is for keeps.
As best I can tell, the judge decided they did not understand enough to be guilty.
That’s one of the dangers of “thought crimes.” If you can’t understand your crime you’re not guilty. it’s like how retarded people and children are innocent if they can’t understand what they have done wrong.
Even if you could prove what they were thinking, they can’t be held in jeopardy of the original crime–perjury-PERHAPS–the original-NO.
So now, the question of whether or not the original injunction was legal is moot.
Hundreds of students took the opportunity to skip class, about half the teachers were absent that day, folks got worked up on all sides of the questions. It would have made a good football rally-full of sound and fury, signifying….
It all shows the dangers of prohibiting practice of religion solely because it’s religion and why the Constitution forbids such prohibitions. This doesn’t protect Christians or nonChristians. It protects ALL people who want freedom. I may not like how someone practices religion or doesn’t; they may not like how I do or don’t. Neither of us is allowed to make a law forbidding the other, instructing them on how and when to practice or not practice religion. The Constitution forbids it.
No law or judge outweighs the Constitution. If we don’t like it we’re free to convince the People to amend the Constitution; it’s been done many times. If we simply ignore the Constitution because we don’t like it, we have no law because we threw out the supreme law of the land. The Constitution is not Christian or nonChristian, it’s a framework of government, laying out the powers given to the government and the rights retained by the people, not ceded to the government. It doesn’t matter if the framers of the Constitution were Christian or nonChristian. Only people can hold religious beliefs, not institutions, not governments. (unless you are an animist in which case it’s every rock and tree for itself)
AL
They were on church property for this event? Oh it was only sports boosters gathering, not students? No problem, pray your little hearts out, if it wasn’t a school function.
We can thank God for this ruling and for auto accidents and war and disease and rapes and murders and cancer and hurricanes and whatever we CHOOSE to thank her for. Wake up folks. Your God never gave a paraplegic a new arm or leg despite his assumeD infinite power.
There probably is a higher power but it’s most likely a function of the life force itself. There are many modern writings speculating on this “sensed higher power”. The bible is much more difficult to understand and it has been censored and edited so much by Kings like Mr. James, etc., that we’re left with a muddled mess in a lost language.
Stand up and speak out about what your CONSCIENCE dictates, not what some preacher wants you to say. Speak out like Mr. “Articulate atheist”…but maybe with a little less uh…thermo nuclear zeal? If you’ve read all these posts you’ve seen the writing on the wall. America is in serious trouble because of ignorance and fantacism. Speak !!
I’m so tired of seeing people say that the U.S was “founded on Christianity.” It was NOT.
The Treaty of Tripoli, ratified by the U.S. Senate in 1797, states that “the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
This country was founded on liberty for ALL. This includes religious liberty.
“Keeping in mind that I happen to support the side of the victors in this case; the fact remains that the Federal Judge ruled on behalf of the Pace defendants.”
Please note that the only reason, the Judge ruled in favour of the defendants – their actions did not take place on school grounds.
Nice to see that many still don’t understand the issues at hand in this case.
Articulate Atheist – stay strong and keep questioning. Question, not to be disruptive but as a way to gain knowledge.
At the start of any class I teach, one of the first things I will say is the following:
“The only stupid question is the one you don’t ask.”
This is particularly important to get across for the adults in my classes, they are often high-achievers in their professions who are afraid to ask questions as they feel it will somehow denigrate them. If they don’t ask, I won’t know how to focus my instructions on the specific areas where they lack knowledge.
also, remember that those who are most ignorant are often the ones who will attack you with the “Truth”. Faith and belief do not equal knowledge.
Keeping in mind that I happen to support the side of the victors in this case; the fact remains that the Federal Judge ruled on behalf of the Pace defendants.
Mr. Somerville, for a moment I thought you a worthy adversary. That being said, I must challenge your reply. I have learned in graduate school that professors don’t take the word of the student; the student must utilize complete citations to support their arguments.
You make the common mistake of not quoting completely or accurately. For example, I never said the Constitution mentioned anything about God or Jesus; I simply said the Declaration of Independence mentioned a ‘Creator.’
I love your reference to the Jefferson Bible. This was a creation of Mr. Jefferson as an attempt to explain Jesus Christ without referring to miraculous or other logically inexplicable concepts. However, I took your advice and looked at the writings of Mr. Jefferson. Maybe you should, too, for in your very references you make my case. In a letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush in 1803, Jefferson makes the statement that he is a Christian.
In your reference to the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli there was indeed article XI that made the mention you referred; however, 8 years later when the treaty was ratified that article was removed.
In your reference to Mr. Adams’ quote, here is the complete quote:
” Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, “This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion at all!!!” But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.”
By the way, I never said the founding fathers were Christian, just not atheists as an earlier post had alleged.
Funny how your own post makes my case for me time after time. Even your rant about Freedoms makes my full circle argument:
” One cannot have freedom of religion is one is forced to listen to the blatherings of another’s personal beliefs. One cannot have freedom from religion if one is forced to live under laws and codes created by reference to one particular set of religious beliefs. One cannot have freedom if others are allowed to tell you what to do in public spaces”.
I couldn’t have said it any better.
Take a look at Lee’s posts for other items I would have cited; thanks and credit to Lee.
I will leave you, sir, with a reminder that in 1892, the United States Supreme Court, in rendering their decision in a case called Church of the Holy Trinity v US 143 US 547 (1892) made the comment that this country was a religious one.
I hope that we are enjoying a friendly and healthy spar; I don’t intend to make this personal. I enjoy a good debate, sir.
Articulate Athiest,
Christianity, itself, has for the most part, become just another religion, when folks take the Name, but still want to “do their own thing.” But God has always had a remnant (those who strive to do what God asks them to do). They really desire and strive to be like Him. It is written: “Why call me Lord, Lord, yet do not do the things I say?”
That being said, perhaps you need to hear with different ears, and see with different eyes. Look for that Treasured Pearl in the world’s field of weeds. Do not allow the enemy of men’s souls to deceive you away from The Truth. As in……Do not let what men do come between you and God. For, we are here but for a moment in time. We WILL live somewhere, forever. That, should be a very sobering thought. Do not let mere mortals turn YOU away from your Redeemer. ALL of us have sinned. Without Him, there is no hope. That which is not made pure by Him cannot enter into His courts, for it would not be heaven. It would just be what we have now. Every knee will bow before The KIng one day, and every tongue will confess that He (Jesus Christ, God’s own Son), is Lord. He loves you, AA, no matter what you think of Him. His sacrifice was for all, who believe and want Him above all. Our lives on this planet are very very short in eternity. We can take nothing tangible with us, when we leave. It is written, “What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul?” Please think about these things. Perhaps you just hate hipocrisy. People may fail, but Jesus will not. There is NO fault in Him.
What was the squarkers name that started all of this mess? She was on T.V. tonight, squaking some more. I know GODS love will forgive her. If she asks him.
HM,
You said you liked the saying, “There are no Christian children…” I just want you to know that, although most children do not turn their lives over to Christ as early as I did, I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior when I was only three years old. I am not a perfect person, but I have loved Jesus and what He did for me for my entire life. Religion is not forced on everyone. Some of us genuinely love Jesus! I came to Christ because I could read almost anything by age three, and I read the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John by myself. I knew I had lied to my parents and had been mean to my older sister at times. I may not have committed some horrible crime, but I understood that those little things that I did were wrong and sin in the sight of God. I was truly sorry for sinning and putting a barrier between myself and God. He forgave me on that day, and I am still grateful that He did. Now I am 22 years old, and I have not had a perfect life. My dad (a preacher) abused me for most of my life. I know firsthand how hypocritical some Christians can be. However, I know that no matter what happens or how some people live their lives, my God is still in control and He still loves me. He has given me the most wonderful husband in the world, and I’m going to do my very best to serve Jesus Christ for the rest of my life.
God Bless
Articulate, What is the matter with your grammer? “much more well qualified” HUH? How about taking english classes? I am more qualified would be the correct way to write that. Now on to other things… Christians are not trying to take over the world. We are merely trying to give our children a safe and Godly nation to live in. This country was founded upon Christian principles. Study early American history and find out for yourself….. When a country loses sight of God they stand a huge chance of losing everything else aso. You are so young to have such a strong opinion. I truely pray that some day soon that will change for you.
AA,
Thanks for your input which you are granted to offer by the right of freedom of speech. Yes, you are very articulate but sorely misinformed about the purpose of the people of faith. We hope that all people can find their way to reap the benefit of an after life of neverending peace and joy. Some may tend to overly zealous and in many cases that will turn people away from religion. This unfortunately appears to be true all too often. May you find some kind of peace in your walk of life and I will continue to pray for you an others of your mind set. God Bless!
I’m glad to see that there are some rational thinkers amongst this group of zealots and fanatics. It’s of no surprise that there are a number of them, though, who persistently will shove their religious garbage down the throats of those who do not wish to listen.
I’m a student at Pace High School, much more well-qualified than any of the countless vagabonds who presume they can understand the religious and cultural intolerance at that school. I’ve heard racist remarks, political slander, and derogatory terms towards other religions, sects, or countries of origin in the halls of Pace High, even by some of the teachers. That any of you would have the GALL to assume that the prayers are innocuous, I find thoroughly disturbing.
Listen to yourselves! “The evils of liberalism and agnosticism,” which is no doubt quoted from some right-wing news network like FOX or CNN. I have no problem expecting this from the denizens of Northwest Florida… you all sound like people from the Spanish Inquisition, or a bunch of Christian Crusaders off to slay more infidels. I’ll be glad when the rest of the world nukes your intolerant lot.
Freeman and Lay did not pay a single red cent (no pun intended) to the fine ($5,000 in fines and court costs).
Thank God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All charges against Frank Lay and Robert Freeman are completely dropped against them! The possibility of a prison term and paying a fine no longer exists now, and THANK GOD!
May God Bless All of You who are weighing in on this subject Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Agnostic,…. All of us. Being a Christian myself, I see this as an opportunity to witness to those who would otherwise never hear the truth of the Christian faith. To be a Christian is first to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, born of the virgin Mary, who was crucified to take on the sins of the world. Next we are to ask God to forgiveness of our sins accept Jesus as the Son of God (our Saviour) who is the Sacricficial Lamb of God. Then are to strive to live and follow the teachings of Christ (to be Christ-like). You don’t have to go through a bunch of ritualistic, legalistic junk. The ultimate goal is the reward of being able to join and serve the Father in Heaven after life here is over instead of and eternity of darkness, separation, anguish and absence of the glory of God. It’s really simple just a little faith is all you need. Faith being the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews11:1). There is no set time or place when you have to worship God. Keep a prayer in your heart always and He will show you the way to the truth. Thank God continually because without him we are all condemned. Worship is love and it is not something you have, it is something that you do.
Get a bible and don’t just read it, study it. May God be revealed to all who read this post and to those who still don’t believe, I will continue to pray for you.
you are a cult and brainwashed…you believe what you are told by your parents. Do you also believe in Santa?
In 1853 a movement was started in which a group petitioned congress for the separation of Christian principles from government, a separation of church and state. For nearly one year the Senate and House Judiciary committees reviewed and studied the petition to see if it would be possible to separate Christian principles from our civil government. Both returned almost identical reports.
This is from the House Judiciary Committee report on March 27, 1854, It said, “Had the (founding fathers), during the revolution, a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle….At the time of the adoption of the constitution and its amendments, the universal sentiment was that Christianity should be encouraged, but not any one sect (denomination).”
It also said, “In this age, there is no substitute for Christianity…That was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.”
But what about the first amendment someone might ask. Good question. The emphasis of the first amendment which says, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” the emphasis was never to separate Christianity from government, but to keep one single denomination within Christianity from controlling the government.
In 1801 the Danbury Baptist Association heard a rumor that the Congregationalist denomination was to become the official denomination of the United States. They were alarmed and sent a letter to Thomas Jefferson. He responded with a letter of his own.
It was January 2nd, 1802, and in his letter he told them they didn’t have to worry about one denomination within Christianity taking over the government because, “the First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state.” (that is the origin of that phrase)
John Adams said, “The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity”. Preserving American liberty depends first upon our understanding the foundations on which this great country was built and then preserving the principles on which it was founded.
Woodrow Wilson once declared, “A nation which does not remember what it was yesterday, does not know what it is today, or what it is trying to do. Psalm 44:1, says “We have heard with our ears Oh God, Our fathers have told us what you did in their day long ago.” And the trouble with America today, is that we stopped listening to our fathers, listening to what they told us God did in their lives long ago.
It was on July 30th (1789) that President George Washington gave his inaugural address, 1/3 of which was dedicated to the direct supplication to God for guidance and strength for our nation. And with that start, God has blessed our nation.
Yes. This is a waste of money, but if all, or even a majority of those who call themselves, Christians would, everyday, be this “gung ho,” to obey and follow Jesus in every setting, in every situation, they would not be lumped with all religions. Jesus did not come and die, so we could be called by His Name, yet do our “own thing.” He did not come, suffer and die, so that we could just “belong to a religion.” He came so that we could have life, and that more abundantly. So that we could go out into the world and do even greater things than He did. He said that signs would follow those that believed…….healing the sick, casting out devils, and raising the dead. Is it not possible that we are missing it somewhere? Do we believe all of His Word? Some of it, I’ve not yet heard taught.
All that being vented, I am very thankful to God for this outcome, as I am thankful for anyone who takes a stand for what is right. We need to all “stand” in Him all the time. The one writing this does not have signs following either. I too am missing it somewhere. However, I am determined to press on, until “I get it right.” I love you all, no matter what your belief, but I pray that all come to a knowledge of The Truth as soon as possible. Both sides of this debate have some legitiment points, in my opinion.
THinker -
It was not considered an “intentional” violation of the ruling since they were not on school property (but on church property). “who’d a thunk” you couldn’t pray at church??
I have not read the original court order written by Judge Rogers but if, in fact, it states people in school setting cannot “…call upon a diety to offer assistance or a blessing…” what does the judge intend to do about President Obama? His recent “Back to School” speech which was aired live to millions of students across America ended with “…Thank you, God Bless you, and God Bless America.” I think that qualifies as “…calling upon a diety to offer a blessing…” Where was the ACLU that day?
Most of our founding fathers were deists…not christians. They believed in a personal god (which can include all religions).
When the Founders wrote the nation’s Constitution, they specified that “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” (Article 6, section 3)
The words “Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God” are never mentioned in the Constitution.
Christians seem to have the most judgement and evil in them. They twist things to their own benefit. If you dont look, talk, believe, vote like them…you are wrong and your opinion should not matter.
Rev(?)JDSpears had the following nonsense to post:
“The vast majority of new immegrants to the US are from Islamic countries.”
WRONG! The vast majority of new immigrants to the US are from nations that are primarily Roman Catholic – you know, all those “Mexicans” who do your gardening.
Scobie Wilcoxon also posted a rather popular bit of garbage with zero understanding of the meaning of the words:
“The Constitution guarantees freedom OF religion…not freedom FROM religion ” and yet, in a time when the various state constitutions all had mention of God or Jesus within their pages, the US Constitution holds not a single mention of any god.
One cannot have freedom of religion is one is forced to listen to the blatherings of another’s personal beliefs. One cannot have freedom from religion if one is forced to live under laws and codes created by reference to one particular set of religious beliefs. One cannot have freedom if others are allowed to tell you what to do in public spaces – try and remember that when you want to force all non-Christians and non-believers to pay for your Christian beliefs.
Wilcoxon continued with more historical revisionism:
“Forefathers athiest, huh? Someone read to him the bios of the founding fathers. Even the Declaration of Independence mentions a Creator.”
Someone should read to Wilcoxon, the words written by various Founders and NOT their bios as mutilated by modern-day Christians such as David Barton.
Ever heard of Deism? Many of the Founding Fathers held deist views. They did believe in a Creator, just not one that a Southern Baptist would recognize. Specifically, deists held that some unknown being created the universe and all of the natural laws that govern it, wound it up like a clock and – walked away. Leaving the universe and all life within it to get along as best it could without divine intervention.
Ever heard of the Jefferson Bible?
How about this little quote from Thomas Jefferson in a letter to John Adams
“And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter.”
April 11, 1823
or this phrase that is part of the Treaty of Tripoli(1797) ratified in a rare unanimous vote: “The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian Religion.”
How about this little quote:
“I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved — the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
– John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson
This is not a Christian Nation, it is a nation that has a primarily Christian population. The problem for ‘Christians’ in America is that they never seem to be able to agree with each other, in fact often denigrating others as not being ‘real’ Christians.
The teachers at Pace High School violated a court order, almost certainly in the hopes of creating the very mess that has ensued. It costs them nothing out of their own pockets, the school district, and possibly, some of the well-known if secretive groups that continue to promote the ideas espoused by a minority of Americans, are paying the bills. Simply because they work in a school where many agree with their actions does not excuse their behaviour.
Breaking the law is breaking the law – suffer the consequences of one’s actions – or as many continually spout “Do the Crime, Do the Time!”
Seperation of church and state, huh? Someone explain to me please then why during a cermony held yesterday by President Obama to award the medal of honor to the family of a deceased soldier, it was opened and closed with prayer… ??? I am very glad prayer was said. In fact, President Obama’s last words at the ceremony were…. ” God bless America.” But don’t pray in our schools? Our schools; that now need metal detectors and video cameras to control school violence. I should not and would not force you to have to pray before eating but in the same light, I should not be denied my right and desire to pray before eating. Prophecy fulfilling… come quickly Lord Jesus.
There was no explanation for the Judge’s ruling? Why? I hope the ACLU takes this to a higher court. Not having been at the “scene of the crime” myself, I sure would like to know why they are not guilty based on the information about their actions that was provided. ??? Can NorthEscambia.com fill us in?
Christianity does not equal perfection. I’ve never heard any Christian lay claim to perfection. Christians just try to do the best they can to live and worship in a world where they are constantly targeted by irrational groups such as ACLU–who, I believe, do what they do solely for the purpose of money (just like ACORN). If no money was involved, do you really think they would waste their time and money over someone blessing a meal? Do you really think they care about school children hearing a prayer? Do you really think they lie awake at night honestly upset because someone bowed his/her head for prayer at a school? Really?? If they were honest, it’s all about the fame, publicity, and Money. It’s not about “civil liberties,’ it’s about lawsuits–”scamming” for money without actually having to work for a living.
Christians are an easy target for these loathsome people because if a Christian “does something bad during the week” then that must prove there is no God and that Christianity is just a hoax. And saying a prayer? No one, yet, has made a good, sensible case as to how that is FORCING religion on an innocent, impressionable bystander.
I thought he was in court for the charge of “Contempt of Court”? Isn’t this called defiance? The same as he charges his students with at Pace High School when they refuse to follow instruction?
This, like so many other exmaples, is a sad turn. This country, altthough not a Christian Nation, is currently mostly Christian. When the wall of separation is breached, or otherwised weakened, the possiblities for nonChristian prayer/rites appear. It is in the best interesting of the students, teachers, staff, and parents that this wall be maintained.
Why is this important? The vast majority of new immegrants to the US are from Islamic countries. The greatest birth rate is among Muslims. If the Wall is breeched, permitting school staff to direct prayer/religious observations, then these same people will have no recourse but to permit their child to participate.
Religious protection is not religious oppression!
This separation of church and state junk is just that…junk! I’ve offered rewards before to anyone who can find it written in the Constitution of the US. It ain’t there folks.
The Constitution guarantees freedom OF religion…not freedom FROM religion (read it; or have someone read it to you-1st Amendment).
Forefathers athiest, huh? Someone read to him the bios of the founding fathers. Even the Declaration of Independence mentions a Creator.
I am Christian, Southern Baptist to be exact , and yes I mess up during the week and thankfully, I can go to church to pray to my God and make amends.
I think one thing missed by some people is this idea of religious tolerance. It seems that it is really okay to support other religions in schools but not Christianity. It seems that Christians are under fire for… being Christian. That being said, Christians are supposed to be tolerant of others while others seem to be intolerant of Christians. Just try to make this same case using any other religion and see how far it would have gotten in the system.
This case was really scary. These men were about to be incarcerated (someone look up the definition) for praying to the God of the Judeo/Christian Bible but we aren’t even allowed to say the word Islamic Terrorist. Hmmm. Are we headed down the road of religious persecution by our government officials, i.e., Russia, Iraq, Somalia, Sudan?
It is shame when anyone thinks it is ok to force their religion/beliefs on anyone else. Who are we to say what God to believe in – the people in Fl are confused! This is not a great day – you say you are Christain as I watch you scream and try to belittle people supporting the ACLU…is that what Christains do? I watched as a man screamed rudely at a priest a man who firmly believes in God…is that what Christains do?
It’s great we are all free to follow and practice our individual religion/beliefs but there in lies the quandary – your beliefs not necessarily my beliefs. I don’t want religion forced on my child nor would I force my religion/beliefs on yours. Your fervor and behavior makes you seem like a cult…..is that what your religion teaches you?
enough is enough already – we have wasted so much time and money in court for this issue – regardless of the outcome – even though they say his mind sent was not what it was – we all know it was – people get real – stop pushing religion down everyones throat – you all say you are Christians and then you go and do something bad during the week and since you go to church on Sunday you think you are better than someone else – get real -
Several of our founding fathers were atheist. Hence “separation of church and state”.
I’m so glad the judge returned this verdict. Praise God! The ACLU is completely off base on this one. It’s one thing to separate church and state, but to require one to totally disregard his/ her faith, including interfering with others practice of it, is not only wrong, but, I believe, unconstitutional. The constitution provides for freedom of religion, NOT banning of religion. One last thought – what does it say about where our country is headed when our President can host a group of people in the White House to celebrate the start of the Muslim holiday Ramadan, but a man can’t offer a simple prayer to ask blessing for a meal?
How would you feel if your child’s muslim teacher took out a mat and started a muslim prayer in the classroom? They dont have to participant, but can look around the room in this akward situation. Or maybe you think they should participate to avoid looking out of place. How would you feel as a christian to attend a work function and have to sit through a jewish prayer? I dont have a problem with any religion praying in church, in their own home, or quietly to themselves. You can even send your child to a private school that practices the religion of your choice. I read something once that said “there are no christian children, just children of christian parents’. Both sides are all yelling, but no one is listening.
Gee, didn’t the President use the name of “God” in his speech to the children last week? where was the ACLU on that one???
Like Acorn, the government should stop funding the ACLU as well.
Jeff- I would not care if my kid (or in my case grand child) heard someone praying to another god because I know they are being taught who the real God is and they are also being taught that there are people who do not believe in Him but follow other gods or no god at all. But I am sure our forefathers would roll over in their graves if they knew how the liberals of the 20th century had taken prayer out of our schools and how the liberals of the 21st century are denying the right to practice one’;s religion in public IF that person is a Christian.
This country was founded on christianity, so glad they were found not guilty.I will be so glad when we take this country back.
So the school employees have to be disrespectful and cannot bow there heads if a student prays. Frank Lay and Freeman need to file a lawsuit against the ACLU for taking there right to freedom of speech. It is okay for gay rights and other influences against our religous beliefs to be taught to our kids. We need to start speaking out against the curriculum being taught.
One thing that everyone keeps using is “what if they were muslim or another religion and they prayed in front of our children at school” example, needs to understand that our founding forefathers began this country on the Word Of God. We are supposed to be a Christian nation. It is okay for other religions to practice their religion here. But we are still One Nation Under God! If they don’t want to hear anyone pray to the one and only true God, find a country that is based on their religion and move their.
Jeff – if the school staff member was leading a luncheon at a mosque or temple, then I would certainly expect them to offer thanks in whatever prayer / meditation that particular belief system subscribed to. since this luncheon was on the property of a Christian church, attendees shouldn’t be surprised to hear a Christian prayer.
HALLELUIAH!!!!! i know, for a fact, that Gods hand was on this entire situation….a glorious defeat for the ACLU!!
Great news! Not only was it a bogus charge (the luncheon was on a CHURCH property… they pray at places like that) but there is simply no crime in being grateful .
Yeah, you all want prayer in school now, just as long as it’s Christian prayer, right? But I bet you’d all be screaming bloody murder if you found out your son or daughter had been within earshot of some school official quoting the Quoran or praying to Allah? Think about this and you’ll know how parents who belong to other denominations feel when they hear some idiot thanking God for giving the gift of a new fieldhouse so little Johnny can change into his football uniform in a nice clean building. I’m sure this was real high on God’s priority list, as the world is now free of war, murder, rape, disease, and he has nothing better to do.
I’m not a Christian, so I don’t consider this a victory for God. I consider it a victory for our constitution, those who have died to protect it, and all those who wish to worship or profess their faith openly.
I can only hope (and pray) that those of you who wish to allow Christian teachers to demonstrate their faith will be just as supportive of a Muslim teacher that wishes to wear a traditional covering (if female) and/or to pray at the times and in the manner subscribed to by their religion. Freedom OF religion, not Freedom FROM religion.
Making this a Christian/Non-Christian issue, only divides us as a nation, while the very people who are suppose to preserve our liberties strip them from all of us.
And yes, we do need to watch these judges and their rulings, whenever they rule unconstitutionally, we need to VOTE them and/or those that appoint them OUT.
By the way, if I had to categorize myself, I’d be in the same one as Mr Franklin, a Deist.
Frank Lay for Superintendent and JoAnn Simpson has to go…
to God be the glory great things He hath done so loved He the world that He gave us His Son
Just look at all the money wasted over this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think the American Civil Liberties Union should have to pay for all this wasted tax payers money and pay these two people for there there troubles caused by this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Prayer should be in the schools, and if a student does not want to thats his choice.
How stupid is this crap?????
A federal court order earlier this year prohibited, among other things, any prayer in schools, “reading from a sacred text”, “calling upon a deity to offer guidance, assistance or a blessing” and religious services such as baccalaureate services. There are circumstances were student-led prayers are permissible, but school employees are prohibited to participate in the prayer, even prohibited from “a posture or manner that is likely to be perceived as an endorsement of prayer, e.g. bowing their heads, kneeling or folding their hands”.
PRAYER IN PUBLIC SCHOOL WIN!
youth united teens in school should be encouraged to pray with other teens in schools all acrossed this land. it may just help to put prayer back in schools.encourage you teens to form a club at school to pray.
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Praise the Lord! Thank you for standing beside these men!
For their sakes as well as for the children, youth and families of our communities!
Remember, “The earth is the Lord’s and they that dwell therein”. When God is
in control, and He is, then it is futile for the ACLU, any other organization, even
humanbeings themselves to go against Him. “Stand up, Stand up for Jesus,
ye soldiers of the Cross, Lift High his royal banner, It must not suffer loss. From
victory, unto victory His army shall He lead, Till every foe is vanquished and Christ is Lord Indeed.”
The First Amendment to the Constitution clearly states ‘Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” That’s the very first thing that the founders were concerned with…That the Government should not be allowed to establish a state religion and should not be allowed to interfere with your right to worship or not as you see fit. Any time there is a court order that prohibits U.S. citizens from praying in public, that court order is a violation of your first amendment rights. Any judge who issues such an order violating the civil and Constitutional rights of an individual because atheists get offended by Christianity should be themselves put into prison. There is no Constitutional right not to be exposed to religious views, only the right not to be forced to share those views. Thank God that this was rectified.
Let me get this straight. They signed a consent decree that admitted they were wrong to offer prayers at government (school) sponsored events, then the first chance they had, they did the same thing. What in the world is it with people like this who feel that a taxpayer-supported event must have a very specific religious set of words to legitimize it. If I were a Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu or non-religious taxpayer whose taxes had helped to provide this facility, I’d be totally offended. When the constitution is used to blatantly advance the interests of a specific religion, we are well down the path to the same kind of intolerance that chased the original settlers of this country out of their own repressive countries.
Praise the Lord!
AMEN!!
I KNEW HE WOULDNT BE FOUND GUILTY BECAUSE GOD IS IN CONTROL!! GOD BLESS!!
I’ve prayed about this all day. Thank you Jesus for hearing my prayer. Thank you Frank and Robert for your willingness to stand up for Christ. Thank you Judge Rogers for your compassion. A Christian is taught to love everyone regardless of personal faith. I love America and thank God that I live in this country.
Don’t get too excited about this ruling!!!. Remember the ACLU is here to protect your rights and mine (NOT!!!,) which are garenteed in the Bill Of Rights. I just wish the ACLU and especially Ms Watson would read the entire document and not cherry pick bits and pieces that suit their view. The second part of the BILL OF RIGHTS, states that the government shall not PROHIBIT THE FREE EXERCISETHERE OF. I think the ACLU wants to PROHIBIT THE FREE EXERCISE THERE OF. They love the first part but hate the second part of that BILL OF RIGHTS. JUST SAY NO!!! to the ACLU. LONG LIVE FREEDOM. O.K If I were a Democrat I would be a POLITICAL ACTIVIST but since I am an Independent thinker I am a domestic terrorist or mobster. I thought mobsters lived in CHICAGO!!! Guess not.
This is great!!!! God has blessed Frank and Mr. Freeman! I knew it would turn out for their good! Romans 8:26-28! Once again Thanks be to God!
I belive everyone should be able to pray over a meal or any other event. The majority not the miniorty should rule!!!!!! That whats wrong with this country now. To Mr Lay and Mr Freeman GOD BLESS YOU!!! Put this behind you now and carry on with your lives.
The only outcome that made sense…how can it be illegal to pray?! I don’t understand how anyone could feel harmed by a prayer.
Praise God! Justice prevails.
Wow, this is bs man he violated a court order on more than one occasion, lock him up and throw away the key, no bibles allowed, big nice try court system.
Amen. Mr. Lay and Mr. Freeman have fought the good fight. Bless you both.
Students — remember you can pray when you want at school. You are the soldiers in this battle. Onward.
Thank you Lord!!
Praise God from whom ALL blessings flow!!!!
What a day!
I love it when God reveals himself in a miracle such as this!!!!!!
Onward Christian soldiers!!!!!
Thank you Mr. Lay and Mr. Freeman for being examples for us all!!!!!!
God has a special crown in heaven for both of you!!!!!
This is one of those things that we will be praising God throughout eternity for!!!!!
AMEN, AMEN, and AMEN!!!!!!
I agree. This should have never been any kind of issue. Glory!
AMEN and Praise the LORD!!!!!!!!
Praise God! Pray without ceasing!
To God be the Glory!
THANK YOU,LORD for this victory! This should never have been an issue. Be assured it will come up again, though. Every one should be able to give thanks for our food without fear of reprisal. Mr. Lay & Mr. Freeman are examples that we all should follow. All good things come from our HEAVENLY FATHER and we should be able to give HIM the glory.
RWC……………You couldn’t be more RIGHT!
Also, must say it was awesome seeing all the christian taking a stand for our Lord. Maybe now we will all be salt and light to the world. Press on people do not sit down now!!
Thank you Judge Casey Rodgers for a job well done, you are an asset to the Federal Court! Praise the LORD….all the prayers were answered! Thank you to all the supporters and donations for their legal defense!
AMEN!!
Angela — just a judge.
Was this a jury case or just a judge?
yeah! I guess that the Lord is still in control!
AMEN!!!
AMEN!!! I believe Christians are finally being awakened to make a stand against the evils of liberalism and agnosticism. It’s about time…