I have long considered the fact that the risk of being locked up with sadistic criminals is one of the very few things that actually makes prison unpleasant. Consider: you got food, clothing, shelter, medical care. Also limited mobility yes, but your needs are taken care of. If you just didn’t have such certified bad neighbors….

So actually, in a way sadism can be a part of Justice that is locking people up where they have to be afraid of their neighbors. Any fear of the consequences of committing crime would serve a goal for society. You claim that benefits of some forms of punishment are not worth it. I suspect you really oppose it and are using these as justifications rather than actual reasons. But I could be wrong, I have been twice before.

AND
“We can get all philosophical and ask “what makes the legal definition of Justice more viable than the community’s definition?” ”

Actually, not a bad question, aside from the claim you have THE legal definition and that the community shouldn’t be considered.

The idea of not getting philosophical about this seems strange since that’s exactly what the whole thing is. If it did not matter in the grand scheme of things there’s no a reason to favor or oppose changes. Of course there are also many irrational philosophies and I doubt that the assorted books on criminal justice all use exactly the same definition.

I suspect the killer and his mother had very different definitions. I believe we could probably reject theirs. They were willing to kill as a matter of pride as best I can figure from the weird texting because they value that more than a life of this woman or the people around her are in fact their own lives since they were willing to rest being killed. As always the insanity defense makes more sense among people like this.

David for sanity

People change. They grow, they learn, they adapt. I know I’m definitely not the same person I was 10 years ago. And, assuming he lives a full life, this kid is going to have 60+ years to consider what he did and, hopefully,come to terms with it.

Maybe he will. Maybe he won’t. But saying that we should execute him because you gazed into a crystal ball and saw that he is still going to be the same kind of person in a half-century is ridiculous.

I minored in criminal justice in college, which is why I always comment on these kinds of stories. One of the most important concepts that they drove into us is that Justice has to have an objective. Harming people with no clear goal isn’t justice. It’s sadism.

You’re right though. A disturbingly large number of people in our community have warped the definition of Justice to mean “anything that causes harm to people I hate”.

Sure. We can get all philosophical and ask “what makes the legal definition of Justice more viable than the community’s definition?”, but that doesn’t change the fact that it terrifies me what the future will look like when “the people we hate” starts shifting from murderers and rapists to minorities and refugees.

Very few people believe that each and every crime deserves life in prison or sometimes even prison at all. Further, the Constitution guarantees the right to appeal. There is no guarantee that they will win their appeal but people have that constitutional right to appeal.

It is interesting that anyone would think that a person should not have a right to appeal especially since it is possible some people could have evidence turn up showing they were not guilty of whatever crime they were convicted of. Yes, I know there are people who hate our Constitution and want to live under some dictatorship in which they get to make the laws and everyone else has to simply obey.

Those people often have criminal intent since they are wanting to overthrow the Constitution, the supreme law over this nation. Under your statement they should be in prison for life without a right to appeal. I wonder if — given the right jury — that would include you (or me).

An Uncle of mine by marriage was charged with murder. He was unsuccessfully tried several times until the government finally gave up. Years later the man he was accused of murdering showed up. Uncle Dick walked up to him said, “I told them I didn’t kill YOU .” The man agreed that he had murdered someone else. He was not guilty of the crime for which he was charged. He was guilty of a different crime — similar but different.

Just something to think about.

David for perfect Justice, whatever that is
plus some mercy where possible

”has to adhere to:”
“it must be”

If you can force everyone to follow your definition and the definitions of all the words within your definition, then you tend to win your argument.

On the other hand if to win your argument, you have to force everyone to follow your definition and the definitions of all the words within your definition, then you have admitted that you would lose under a natural situation with freedom to choose.

Your definition of justice is close but it is not the only applicable one. In fact people disagree over Justice that’s why we have judges and lawyers and legislators. They they get to make their definitions.

But you really don’t win if you can only win by forcing others to comply. You don’t actually win if you wear them down or mock them for disagreeing when you have different original definitions. Obviously their definition of justice is not the same as yours.

Please consider these facts.

You’re right. I should have known better than to waste my time trying to use logic to talk people out of positions they didn’t logic themselves into.

I guess it’s just disappointing being reminded how little the people in my community care about human life.

Y’all talk about how disgusting it is that this man and his mother could have such little regard for human life, while *simultaneously* calling for them to be executed, despite the fact that there are no benefits to killing them over life in prison other than sating your bloodlust.

It’s bad enough knowing that there was a murderer in our community. It’s even worse knowing how many of you would gladly do the same if given the opportunity.